Self-taught real estate investor Sep Shoemaker shares why spending quiet time with God is essential.
Joining me on the podcast this week is good friend Sep Shoemaker, of Shoemaker Properties. Sep is a devout follower of Christ who has put in the work and effort to have a relationship with God. On this podcast we cover Sep's story, how he got into real estate, and most importantly Sep's relationship with God. Sep is a faithful servant who makes sure to put quality time with God at the start of his day every single day. We go over why spending quiet time with God is so important, how to stay consistent in your faith, and what it means to be a Christian business owner.
Guiseppe (Sep) Shoemaker was born in Richmond Indiana. He has been married to his wife Allison for 20 years and they have two boys, Tucker, and Toby. They live on their farm outside of Richmond and enjoy the country life. Sep has been in the construction industry for 30 years, and is the owner of Shoemaker Properties LLC, Shoemaker Properties Management LLC, and Shoemaker Properties Contracting LLC. When he’s not spending time with his family or working, Sep enjoys leading worship and small groups at LIFESPRING Church, where he and his family attend. Jesus, business, and leadership are all areas that Sep is consistently trying to grow in.
SEP'S SOCIALS
LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sep-shoemaker-50043919b/
FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/sep.shoemaker
SEP'S BUSINESS
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Joining me on the podcast this week is a good friend and self-taught real estate investor, Sep Shoemaker. On this podcast, we cover Sep's story, how he got into real estate, and most importantly, Sep's relationship with God. Sep is a faithful servant who makes sure to put quality time with God at the start of his day every single day. We go over why spending quiet time with God is so important, how to stay consistent in your faith, and what it means to be a Christian business owner.
I want to welcome you to this episode. I have a good friend of mine on this particular episode named Sep Shoemaker with Shoemaker Properties. He's out of Indiana. He owns his real estate business and property management company. He's an extremely amazing, genuine, and authentic man of God. We will dig into that. When I think about a man with such childlike and authentic faith, and is a doer of the word, and not just here, I think of this man, Sep Shoemaker.
He has a streak on his Bible app that every single morning, he spends at least an hour with the Lord. He’s started spending half a day a week with the Lord, 5 or 6 hours straight. He's been doing this every single day, 1 hour with the Lord for 1,500-plus days. What he talks about in this particular episode is that he shows up and the Lord speaks to him. The Lord is living through him. He is a marketplace Christian business leader. He's an awesome man of God. Sep Shoemaker is on the show with me.
I want to talk to you real quick about some things with Iron Deep. If you go over and check out IronDeep.com, that's our website. We got some cool things going on. Go check out the Retreats page. We have a retreat called the Men's Awakening coming out on March 13th, 2023. This is in Zion National Park. We've rented out two Airbnb. It's on 25 acres right at the foothills of the mountain of Zion National Park. We're going to be with other business leaders of faith. They’re very highly successful business owners of faith. We're going out there.
We have an amazing program set up to give you an opportunity to encounter the Father in such an authentic way and build that depth of relationship with other like-minded business owner dudes. This is what we do. It's a very undistracted environment so make sure you apply on IronDeep.com for that particular retreat. We have some other retreats coming up as well. We have The Soulmate Retreat. If you're interested in going with your spouse or wife, I would make sure you check out The Soulmate. That's coming in November 2023. Make sure you check out the Retreats page on IronDeep.com.
We also have videos on there that relate this message that talks to men of faith and those that have business ownership. What are you guys struggling with? How can we help you? Whether it's in your business, as a leader of your organization, or in your health, families, or relationships, how can we help you live the most fulfilled life through Christ? That’s our mission.
Check out our YouTube channel. We have videos coming out each week and we're having more. We got more things to come. We want to hear from you. What do you want to hear? We love creating, collaborating, and celebrating men of business ownership and faith. Check all that at IronDeep.com or our YouTube channel @IronDeep. I want to introduce you to Mr. Sep Shoemaker.
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I'm back with our guest for this episode. I got Sep Shoemaker on the show with me. What's going on, Sep?
Not much. How are you doing?
I'm doing fantastic. I’m super honored to have you on here. We get to see each other quite a bit.
That's been a huge bonus in my life, I got to tell you.
I didn't know if it was going to be a bonus or a setback.
It’s a bonus.
Thank you so much. It's been an honor to walk with you. We've gotten to know each other over the past few years in real estate investing. We’re both from Indiana. You got a chance to come out to Iron Deep and see what that was all about. I got to know you a lot better through that and the Iron Deep community. We've stayed in contact and been able to walk with each other a little bit through our faith walk and also our business walk.
It's an honor to have you here. When I think about people that have that maturity in their faith but also have that childlike faith, I think about you. That's what the Bible talks about, having that childlike heart and faith. That's innocent. You're with the Father. We've talked a lot about that. Before we dig into that and have our audience hear the heart of Sep Shoemaker, let's talk about your journey. You've had an interesting life and journey.
Yes, I have. My mom and dad divorced when I was very young, like a year old. My dad struggled with addiction all of my life and most of his. I spent a lot of time with my mom and both sides of the family. I didn't spend a whole lot of time with my dad. As I grew up in a broken home, my mom got remarried. I have a half-brother and two sisters that came along. We have a great sibling relationship and still. I didn't find Jesus until I was 21.
Growing up, I knew I always wanted to be in some trades. I wanted to be a carpenter. My mom used to joke around and say, “Jesus was a carpenter.” At that time, it didn't matter. I didn't care. I knew that's what I was into and I enjoyed it. In high school, I started in a vocational school. Right out of high school, I went down to Vincennes University in Indiana and studied construction down there for a little bit. I went off to do carpentry work. I built bridges and houses for a while. From 2006 through 2009, I built museums and museum displays. I have a pretty good range of carpentry experience, building, and construction. It’s always been around it.
You were in the construction industry and you still are, especially with real estate. You buy some houses on your own. You do some property management and a lot of construction too. It sounds like you've been in that industry for pretty much all of your career. Is that correct?
In one aspect or another of it, it's always been part of my life. I worked for a chemical plant for a while. I did go on to get a degree in that. I worked for them for a while until I was thrown back into this industry. It worked out though. I can look back.
I want to take us back up in the last few years. You've started your company, Shoemaker Properties, and done some property management and construction. Take us through your journey from construction.
I look at all the different jobs I had and the different skills that the Lord gave me. I can see how he was preparing me. At the time when you're walking through, you never know where you're headed. You take one day at a time. I can see how each skill and area of building and construction has led me up to this point. When I was 21 years old, I worked in the forestry industry. I was a logger. We did tree clearing and timber buying. I was running an excavator one day.
I lived a pretty rough life back then. I hung around with a lot of guys a lot like me, doing a lot of things we shouldn't have, and heading down that wrong, empty path. I sat in this excavator one day and the spirit of the Lord came on me. I didn't know what it was at first but what I did know was that the love that I felt at that moment changed my life forever. I knew I could never be the same because of all of the things that my mom and my grandma had always told me about the Lord, how he was real, and how he loved me, at that moment, I found that it was true. It stopped me in my tracks.
I sat in the cab of that excavator and cried. I thought, “He's real. There is no other explanation for what happened as I'm sitting here.” It was life-changing. I'm either all out or all in. At that moment, I was all in and my life did a 180. I was ready to tell everybody what I had experienced. You can't argue with the experience. I stayed in construction but I knew that my life had some purpose.
I even wondered for a while if I should be in full-time ministry. It was awesome because I met my wife right after that. Her dad was the one that taught me that you don't have to be in vocational ministry to be in full-time ministry. That took a minute but I finally understood what he meant by that. I kept growing in my skills as a carpenter. I got married maybe two years after that. As soon as we got married, we moved to Michigan. That's where my wife was from.
I went back to building houses and doing construction. I got better at trying to hone my craft. I enjoyed a lot of finish work, trim work, and cabinet work. Through that time, I went through some seasons with the Lord. I got close to him. Not falling away from him but sliding away a little bit. I always followed Him. As I look back, if my relationship with him was like it is years ago, where would I be? I think about that often.
In the recession when ‘08 and ‘09 hit, I was building museum displays for a place that built museums. We built all of the displays and stuff. They ended up closing down. They tried to stay in business but the recession was too bad. I went back to school, got a degree in Chemical Processing, and went on to work for a chemical company.
In 2014, I got a call that my dad had passed away. I knew my dad. We had a relationship. It wasn't a great relationship but it was a relationship. He had a lot of industrial real estate over in Dayton, Ohio. He wasn't married at the time. The plan was for me to always take it over someday. We half-jokingly would say but he never told anybody about how he ran that, how it went, or what he did. It was his thing. I knew immediately what that meant when I heard that he had passed away.
He had passed away from an overdose. He went to prison because he got caught with drugs, stayed a year in prison, and then two days after he got out, ended up passing away. My aunt, his sister, ran the business while he was away. It was pretty rough. It was barely hanging on his real estate business. I knew I'd have to take that over and I did. The Lord's hand was on that whole process. My wife and I ran that business from Michigan for two years.
After my dad passed away, my uncle did all of my maintenance and took care of it while I was home. I'd come down every week, spend a few days down in Dayton, and then drive back to Michigan. A year later, after my dad died, my uncle died. I told my wife, “We're going to have to move.” She knew it was inevitable.
It took us about a year to pack everything, put a house on the market, and find a house down here. At that time, we had two boys. We still have two boys but at that time, they were pretty young and had never lived anyplace else than where they were. We were going to have to uproot them and move them down. We all prayed about it together as a family.
We asked the Lord to open some doors, sell the house we were in, and help us find something that would work in the school district that we were looking for over in Richmond. He did every bit of that. It was almost like He was sitting back saying, “I'll let you take your time. When you're ready to do this, then I'll make it happen.” As soon as we all started praying, it happened one after another. The most we could out of our home in Michigan is we found some acreage and a farm down in Indiana and bought that. It was good. We moved down here.
You moved to Richmond, Indiana. You managed this out of Dayton. What ended up happening with that?
About a year after we moved down, I ended up selling all of it. I found a buyer who wanted it all. I have this big sale. We have this contract written up and everything is going well. I thought, “Now what? I don't have a job. I don't know what to do. I've got this farm.” I piddled around on it for a while and tried to be a farmer but I'm not a good one. It ended up sending me into a depression. I didn't have a purpose. I was at a point in my life where I didn't know what to do.
Right at the end of it, I had a very good friend of mine who owned a forestry business. He and I used to work together at that company. He started his business. He had it for about fifteen years and was ready to sell it. He sold it off to another guy and asked me if I would come on board to do sales and estimating for him. I said, “I'm not doing anything else. This has got to be better than driving myself crazy.”
I drove all over Indiana and a little bit of Ohio looking at jobs and quoting things. My younger brother, where there are ten years between him and me, kept telling me about this book called Rich Dad Poor Dad. I was driving around and started listening to books on Audible. I came across that book one day. I thought, “That’s the one book that he had told me about.” I played it.
I went through the whole book for probably two days. I went through it again. I couldn't believe what I was reading about these new ways of thinking that I had never been taught anything. I started absorbing that. I knew right away that I needed to get into real estate. It wasn't even the whole real estate thing. I needed to shift my life and my whole focus on things. I started grabbing every book that I could find on real estate and listening to them.
One day, I was driving. I remember I was down around the Ohio River in Southern Indiana. I got thinking about a podcast. I hadn't listened to a lot of podcasts but I started searching. I thought, “Surely there are real estate podcasts on here.” I started searching and found this one called Simple Wholesaling with Brett Snodgrass. I listened to the most recent one, whatever that one was. I thought, “I could listen to this. This guy proclaims what he believes in Jesus. I believe him.” To be honest, it’s right away. It was awesome.
I went back to the very first one. This was before you had even hit episode 100. I probably had 40 of them to catch up or maybe 50. I started going back. I'd listen to 2 or 3 of them a day listening to conversations. I had a notepad beside me. They are on my armrest in my truck. I'd be driving down the road taking notes as these people you were interviewing. I absorbed it like a sponge.
It was great because, my boys, who were then probably 6th and 7th grade, when they had breaks in school, they would ride with me some days. We'd take off. We may put 300, 400 miles on the truck in that day looking at jobs. We'd be listening to Brett Snodgrass, Simple Wholesaling all day. They knew exactly who you were. It was a great year. I spent a year doing that and it was a great year of education. It was worth more than any degree that I could have gone and got for sure.
That's so crazy that you had spent all these years gone to school and gotten a good education but then you listened and read one book. You listened to a few podcasts and it changed your mindset. A lot of people get into that rut or trap. A lot of this is about mindset. Even when you're in the real estate business, to scale it, level up, or keep growing, you constantly have to shift and change your mindset.
The real estate market is always changing. We're in this transition and in this season. For me, maybe we've been doing this for a while. A lot of times, people will keep doing what they've been doing. It stops working but they keep doing it. For me, maybe we have to switch some things up and start changing our mindset. This changed your life and your sons.
Think about what they've listened to and maybe their mind is opened. When they're 23 or 25 years old, they'll have some of this knowledge. Where it all started for me is listening to books on tape and CDs about ordinary people building businesses. I started when I was 23 or 24 years old and it opened my mind up. If you're reading this, make sure you are educating yourself. Keep growing. Where I have stalled out in life is where maybe I reached a point where I stopped reading. I thought I already knew all this stuff. I stopped consistently growing. Thanks for that.
I want to ask about your business. You've been in real estate for several years and own a property management company. You manage some rental properties around your area in Indiana. You've bought some rental properties yourself, do some flips, and things like that. As a Christian man in your business, talk to us about how things have been going. What is that like in this season of business ownership as a follower of Christ?
It all started back in 2019. I had a vision from the Lord. As I was getting in-depth into this real estate thing and trying to figure out what I'm supposed to do next, I had this idea come to me. It was to have a thousand properties and make several million dollars a year. The biggest and most important thing was to be able to give away a profit of $1 million a year to 3 different ministries. I knew right away who the first two ministries were.
One was an organization that feeds starving children in the Philippines, kids that live in the city dumps. They feed about 3,000 kids a month. I met with them and they're looking to expand. We've been with them from the beginning since they started their ministry. One of the guys that runs it is from the Philippines. He grew up in those same city dumps, living in a cardboard hut. His story is awesome. It grabbed my heart as soon as I met him and we've been on board ever since.
Another one is Project AK-47, where they get children out of human trafficking and child soldiers. They get them to let them live a normal childhood life. Human trafficking has got to be one of the worst evils on the planet. That organization does a great job at that all over the world. I wasn't sure what the third ministry was at first but the Lord made it real clear to me that it was my local church that we go to here in Richmond. We have 2 campuses, 1 on the North side and then 1 South of downtown.
Richmond is full of drugs, abuse, generational poverty, and a lot of things that keep it held down underneath the thumb of the enemy, honestly. I don't know how we're ever going to defeat it but I know that I'm going to give it a fight until I can't anymore. Those were the three ministries. I knew that this is the goal and vision. I then dived right in because that's me, all or nothing.
In the first year, my wife and I bought 30-some rentals. She looked at me like, “Go for it. I'm going to trust you.” Her famous phrase is, “I trust you.” We didn't ever intend to manage other people's properties. In that first year, we were cruising along. I built some relationships with some realtors in town. One of them sent an investor that had called them from California to me one day.
I got a phone call and he says, “I'm part of an investment group out here in California. We buy all over the country but I've always wanted to be in Richmond and get some properties there. I could never find anybody to manage or take care of them. Would you be interested?” I said, “I don't know. It's not something I've ever thought about doing. Those aren't the books I read.” It was about property management for other people.
I told him, “Let me think about it for a few days and I'll get back to you.” I prayed about it and my wife prayed about it with me. We thought, “Let's give it a shot. Why not?” We did. When we tag teamed up with those group of guys, that's been a couple of years and we're close to 250 units in 2 years with them. When we said yes, they were just waiting for that yes. They then come here.
That's quite the growth. We've talked about you have grown so much and what that looks like. Sometimes growth is hard. When you're growing so fast, you're trying to keep up with the moving train. We've had that conversation. Being a business owner can be heavy and challenging. One thing I want to get back to is we're part of a community with Iron Deep. A lot of times, we talk about business, health, challenges, or issues that we're struggling with in life.
You started opening up about your time with the Lord and how you do that. Every morning, you spend an hour with the Lord. Even one day per week, you spend several hours with the Lord. You're talking about sometimes that 5 or 6 hours goes so fast. A lot of the guys are leaning toward soaking that in.
One thing I admire is your consistency. As business owners, we can sometimes get shaken up. We got so many things going on. We're so busy. Sometimes it can be overwhelming. Sometimes, one of the first things to do is our quiet time, maybe going from 30 minutes to 15 minutes, 10 minutes, or 5 minutes. Sometimes, nothing at all. You've had that consistency over time.
Can you talk to our audience about that? You even have an app on your phone. You've been in the Bible app for 1,500-plus days in a row. Even at Iron Deep, one of the things that I asked everyone to do is to put away their phones. You said, “I would love to put away my phone but I got a streak of 1,400 days in my Bible app.” I thought, “That was hilarious. You can read your Bible while you're here.” Talk to us about your consistency with the Lord. Day in and day out, it is an unshakable consistency that you have.
When I started all this, before I even got traction in these businesses, I read the book Miracle Morning Millionaires. I had never heard of any concept like that of waking up at 5:00 AM and focusing the first hour of your day or two hours on something that specific. They don't necessarily call it prayer but it's spending time. They talk about meditation, exercise, and all that. As I was getting through that book, the Lord kept tapping on my shoulder saying, “This is what I want you to do.” It was one of those things where I couldn't get it out of my mind.
No matter what was going on through the day, often I can get busy and forget things. I could not forget about that one. I told my wife as I finished it. I said, “Tomorrow morning, I'm going to wake up at 5:00.” She looked at me and said, “Why?” I said, “Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to try this and see what happens.” I felt like I was a pretty good Christian before that. I loved Him. I taught small groups and led worship at our church. I felt like I was pretty in touch with what the Lord had.
That next morning, I woke up at 5:00, got out of bed, and dragged myself down to the couch. I grabbed my phone and used the YouVersion Bible App on my phone. I used my notes on my phone as well. I started sitting down and reading. I did a devotion. I spent a little bit of time in prayer. I was like, “I like that.” I even had a little worship time where I had a song going and worshiped. I woke up on the second day and then on the third day.
After about a week of that, I thought, “I'll do this for about a month and see how this goes. Maybe I can even print these prayers off because I'm typing out my prayer and everything that I'm doing for myself. I thought maybe I'll print them off, give them to my boys, and let them have them for someday. As the months went by, I never stopped, and then the years went by.
I still think that someday maybe I'll go back and print all of these prayers and times of journaling so that when all this is over and my life is done, they can see the struggle, the good times, the bad times, and the prayers of, “God, how are you going to get me out of this? God, thank you because I don't deserve this.” I want them to be able to do that. Even more, I want to continue.
I hit day 1,000. When I hit the thousandth day, I was like, “This is awesome.” I thought, “That was a huge milestone. Do I stop?” I'll never forget the Lord told me that morning and it was as clear as you and me sitting here talking. He says, “I'm not looking for just 1,000 days. I'm looking for a lifetime.” I was like, “You got it. I surrender. I will give it to you.”
It’s that time with him every morning. Sometimes, it's not 5:00. Sometimes, I don't get up until 7:00 but it is the very first hour, at least, of my day. I give it to him as a sacrifice. It's like, “I'm not going to do anything else, Lord, until I meet with you.” Once I meet with him, it’s okay. A lot of times, as soon as I'm done, I'm kicked in the face with life. I get up and keep going. He gives me that strength.
I ran into a devotional in the YouVersion app by a guy named David Hodgson. He's a business owner and entrepreneur. He's from Australia. His business is worth $1.2 billion. He talked about in this devotion how he spends a full day every week with the Lord. He goes out and takes you on this tour of what he does. He takes his jet ski down to the local reservoir and drives 5 miles up the river. He's got this little island that he's cleared out over the years.
He sets camp up and stays there all day. He says, “How am I supposed to run a business when I don't spend time with the owner? I've got to spend time with him.” He encourages everybody. He's got a whole ministry about all this. It's all about spending time with the Lord. When I ran into that, I thought, “That's incredible. Who's got time to spend a whole day?” He said, “Sometimes I'll spend a day and a half and sleep out there.” He's ex-Special Forces. Spending the night out in the Australian Outback is not anything for him.
I started pondering that and asking the Lord. It kept coming up in my mind and my prayer time. We're so busy. We have a contracting company, a management company, and an investment company. We're running red line all the time, 100 miles an hour. I thought, “There's no way I can take that much time.” I told the Lord, “I'll make you a deal.” That always works. “How about I'll do it from 6:00 AM to noon every Wednesday? How does that sound?” He said, “Let's start there.”
I've missed 1 or 2 because of a surgery that we had and some other stuff but since August of 2022, every Wednesday, that's my day. Everybody in the company knows to not call or text me. I'll get to them after lunch. I spend with him. There's been times I've driven down to our local reservoir that's about half an hour away. I found a nice little beach to go and sit by or pull up to. I do the same thing as what I do on my mornings but I expanded out. When I started that, it was all on my phone and doing stuff. I got a new laptop and was like, “That'd be nice. I can get some typing in on that.” I use that.
When we went to Iron Deep, the Lord opened my eyes to some things. It was an awesome event. What I realized while I was there is spending that much time with him, you can't walk away from that not changed, even if it's a little bit. As close as I already felt to him, I felt even closer after my time there. One of the things He told me is, “You spend a lot of time praying for your issues, yourself, your businesses, and all the things that you're involved in. I want you to spend some time praying for other people.” That hit me right in the eye. I was like, “You're right.”
As I'm looking back through my journals, it's like, “Help, Lord. Lord, thank you for coming through again.” While we were at Iron Deep, I started praying that next morning. I got up and did my devotions. I had a beautiful view out my window, over a lake, and looking at the mountains. I started praying for all these guys that were in my small group there and even some guys that I met with and had been meeting with for years. On Friday mornings, we do an accountability thing. I started praying for them and I thought, “That was good.”
How I always can tell when the Lord is happy about things is He'll tell me. When I started praying for other people, I could tell He was pleased with that. Every day since then, I have prayed for those guys. Even more of the guys that I've met through Iron Deep, they’re put on that prayer list. I was praying for about twenty-some guys in my morning. By the time I get done with that, you burn up 2 or 3 hours praying for people.
We were studying the book of James in our small group. It was talking about doers of the word, not just hearers. We fall into that trap of praying for ourselves, our businesses, and our families. Outside of our homes, sometimes we don't intentionally pray. You were intentional to print out the lists of all the prayers and pray for the individuals. I've got a text from you. It's encouraging to hear that someone is praying for you. Not just saying, “I will pray for you,” but saying, “I did pray for you. Here's maybe something that I heard or something that the Lord told me and showed me.” That's awesome.
You inspire me with your consistency and walk with the Lord. Even before Iron Deep, we were having that conversation. Iron Deep was for business owners. Maybe it's portrayed as someone reaching a certain level. You've been in your business for a few years but you're like, “I don't know. Maybe I'm to the level of some of these other guys and what I have to give or offer.” The thing I told you was your maturity in your faith and soul are what these guys are craving. You've shown that. That's one of the big reasons, not just as a business owner on this show. It’s your heart and the maturity in your heart. Thank you for doing that.
We get hundreds, if not thousands, of business owners reading this particular episode. What are your last words of wisdom as a follower of Christ and a business owner? You're busy. You have a family. You have two boys and you’re married for many years. Tell that person because people reading this have a family or are business owners. They're trying to juggle and balance everything out. What do you say to them?
Here's the challenge. If you want your life to change, spend time with Him. Show up and spend time with Jesus. As well as I thought that I could do everything on my own, it all exploded when I started spending that time with Jesus. The more time I spend with him, the more He shows up. It's funny. Other guys and I were talking about this prayer time. This idea popped up in my head of writing a book. I've never thought about writing a book in my life.
It's funny because the next morning, when I was talking to Jesus, the idea popped up again. All that kept popping up in my mind was the title show up, Living a Life Closer to God. I thought, “That might be a 2023 thing here. I may have to get started on that.” I don't know if I've got that much wisdom to share with anybody but I can tell you from my experiences. I don't have a degree in Economics. I'm not a huge educator of any kind in any of these areas. What I do know is I put the work into it and I've asked the Lord to bless it. We have grown over 100% every year since we've been started. It's all Him.
I like the title. Some of the other guys were asking questions, “How do you spend so much time with the Lord? Does your mind drift with the consistency of it all?” That was your advice. Show up. You said, “Sometimes it's amazing. He speaks to me and taps me on the shoulder. Sometimes it doesn't happen. Every day, I'm there. I show up every single day.” That's awesome, Sep. Thank you so much for being on the show. I appreciate you.
Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
This is a wrap with Sep Shoemaker. Make sure you go check out IronDeep.com. We'll see you soon, Sep.
