As an entrepreneur, it can be hard to spend time with our kids.
Joe Rigney discusses the husband's responsibility in leading the home. If a husband or father casts blame, he has to look at where he may be failing. He may not be able to control everything, but he can learn where he can improve to better influence his family well. Join Michael as he discusses husbands roles in the home with Joe.
JOE'S BOOK: https://a.co/d/bRom64S
MICHAEL: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Iron Deep podcast. My name is Mike Stansbury. Today we have Joe Rigney, special guest. All the way from Moscow at Idaho. Looks like he's in his office there. A little bit of books over there in the bookshelf. Joe, you've written a book called "Leadership and Emotional Sabotage." Tell us a little bit about... our audience about you know... What do you do for a living? What... what's life look like for you? And then why did you write this book? -
JOE: Sure, yeah. I... well I'm a professor at new St Andrews College here in... in Moscow. I'm also... I will be soon a pastor at minister at Christ Church. And... you know... husband, father... High School football coach. All kinds of different hats there and uh you know this book um kind of emerged out of um my own uh teaching uh experience as a pastor and Professor um and uh and kind of observing sort of the cultural uh movements over the last I don't know 10 15 years um and seeing a real need for seeing the way that um um leaders were sabotaged hijacked steered institutions organizations were steered and uh and so um I'd been helped by a certain number of resources but those resources weren't uh weren't explicitly Christian and didn't ground things sort of in the scriptures and and uh and so I wanted to kind of translate some of those best insights but really also root it in more biblical soil okay um the book I I I I've read it uh once uh I I I did what you actually asked us to do as asked us to do is I read the book and then I gave it to my pastor and I've listened to an audio a couple times and the chapter that I really think that would be something that uh would help our audience our audience is mostly Men Christian business owners specifically a lot of us are in the real estate industry and uh a lot of us are you know have kids and teenagers and households and uh chapter 4 is um your your your your your chapter four on courage in the home just uh I I read it today it was it was interesting you know God does the there's no such thing as coincidence I tell my kids all the time is is in the in the Bible reading that I'm reading today it was Ephesians 5 and six and then I reread your chapter today and it was all about that chapter as well so so let's let's dive in there courage in the home what's required what is what should uh men specifically look at in in in that scripture and then and then uh tell me about the the chapter in the book how you kind of uh explain things and and how how should that operate yeah so I think the first thing is um getting clear on what it means to be uh the head of anything of an of of a home of a church of of a business um how headship works and headship always implies body ship um you don't if you don't have a a body you don't have a head um so headship implies uh body ship and um there's a kind of it's a symbiotic relationship you God designed designed social organisms to work the same way he designed our bodies they're supposed to work uh in harmony with one another and for the head um well maybe start with this um the Bible teaches that it's just a basic fact that husbands are the head of their home it's not a it's not a job you don't apply for that job you just have it um by nature of the case it's it's sort of baked into the cake the question is not whether you'll be the head it's what kind will you be a faithful one or an Unfaithful one uh will you be uh will you lead like Christ or will you lead like Adam will you abdicate or will you step up to the plate so the the issue is never um whether uh it's it's what kind and uh and so if you're going to be a faithful head I think the first thing is you need to know what that body is for like what's God's purpose so the function of a head in a a body is to order and structure the body for its purpose that means you have to know what the purpose is you have to um you have to be aware of what has God designed in this case the household for and I think if we look in in the book of uh Genesis we get a pretty good indication um that the household is designed for fruitfulness and for Dominion be fruitful multiply fill the Earth subdue it um that's a that's a command given to the human race but the the sort of Baseline institution that God establishes in order to accomplish that is the household um and so so when so once you know that so fruitfulness and Dominion is what your what your um household is for then it's how do you order and structure it and um and in the book I I argue that one of the more fundamental uh princip this is leader fundamental leadership principles here is this notion of presence that that first and foremost you lead your home by your own gravity um not so it's it's your your words matter your actions matter your Deeds matter but um fundamentally it's about um if if those don't emerge from a presence um a steady competent confident glad-hearted presence then what you'll find you're doing is you're trying to use your um your words and sometimes your tone of voice to compensate for the absence of gravity so um when a when a dad feels like he's got to yell in order to get his way it's because he's he's intuitively recognizing my gravity is insufficient right now I can't just pull my family I've got to push them by by force uh with my with my words so so uh so the the the head in a home order structures the body for its purpose through his presence and his words and his actions and then the other thing he's doing is he's empowering the various members of his household uh to do what they're their calling to fulfill their calling what what do they need in order to get done what they need to get done so he's not doing everything but it is his responsibility to see to it that that he's providing uh the resources necessary the strength necessary the time necessary for um his wife and his kids to do to do what they need to do so that's that's kind of a baseline now there's there's an external component that's kind of the internal this is how you're ordering it internally there's an external component as well we could talk about but that's a pretty good place to start for for thinking through um leadership in the home yeah so uh you know I dealt um I didn't grow up in a um in a household where my dad nily had gravity so I understand that and now I see by reading through this uh the compensation and then I see what I what I learn from that and how uh I've lacked gravity and Tred to compensate with other things and uh so you know it it's it it was really helpful there to kind of understand like hey you got to you you just first and foremost uh be the nucleus and be responsible for everything and so one of the things that we have a problem with in this culture is is blame shifting and and and uh I see it in every chapter of the book but in here it it hit home it hits home and I want it to hit at home for the guys that are listening is that um and this is hard to we're responsible for our marriage we're responsible for our our families our businesses our kids and there's no skirting it and um I love how you uh I think you asked this question is like uh does the bible teach that the man is the head of the household and um and for so often and and I see it in in our culture is that there's you know there's ambiguity there but there's no ambiguity according to scripture um so how does someone begin let's say they're in a position where like they see themselves and they go okay I'm I'm not doing that um you know how do they course correct what do they you know what what what do they do next um tell me about that tell me how you counseled somebody maybe in this position uh before yeah so I think um if you you know this if you realize okay um I don't have gravity um I'm not leading with with presence um I'm not guarding protecting I'm not I'm not I'm do I'm not doing it um I think the first thing uh is you have to start with yourself because you can't export to your family what you you yourself lack so this means this is why the sort of fundamental virtue I commend in the book is sober mindedness um which I Define as sort of a a Clarity of mind uh a stability of soul and a Readiness to act and that Clarity of mind is you're not um you're not not so superm mindedness means you're not uh overwhelmed LED astray um Guided by your passions your passions are not driving the ship they're not steering the ship but instead your your mind and your heart your your mind and your will um are they're your passions are being shephered and stewarded they're important you need them it's not that passions are necessarily bad but they are dangerous and they frequently can lead us astray because they they are more instinctive impulsive they don't they don't consider the Long View they don't consider the big picture uh and so God designed us so that he would be Supreme Over Us so God over our minds and our minds over our passions that's how it ought to work frequently we're upside down God's out of the picture and our passions are leading in our minds are rationalizing EXC making excuses blaming others things like that so the first thing that a leader who's not doing it needs to do is get a grip on himself by cultivating that Clarity of mind um and part of uh kind of my the most actionable um kind of piece of advice in the book I think just kind of immediately is one of the one of the things a leader has to has to cultivate is a a sensitivity to his own passions paying attention to his own hesitations his reluctances when does he self-censor when does he kind of steer away from conflict uh when is he when is he kind of getting his dander up you know when is he you know he can feel frustration Rising when is he shutting down when is he kind of retreating um paying attention to that instinctive impulsive those reactions um of various kinds so whether it's anger which we typically will euphemize as frustration or annoyance um fear which we call anxiety um desire um pity compassion whatever whatever the passion is in particular um there's a tendency to let it run the show and so a guy a man needs to sort of reflect on wh when oh yep there it is I'm I'm paying attention to my hesitations my reluctances my passions and then I need to interrogate them I need to figure out well where where's it coming from why why did I react that way why did I shut down why did I why was I tempted to blow up um and sort of analyze what are my expectations in this situation that aren't being mad or or whatever so he's got to be able to kind of step outside of the emotional system and get a grip on himself and then now he can enter back in and he can um offer the same to his family he can he can bring that stability um so he gets Clarity of Mind what's going on with me what's going on in the situation stability of Soul he's grounded in who God says he is um he knows um he knows the gospel he's he's believing it down in his bones and and that confidence that comes from that stability that comes from knowing who God is and that what God has you for um then leads to a Readiness to act you're not passive but you're ready to step in you're ready no one else is coming no one else is um going to do it it's got It's on you uh and so a leader has to realize a husband has to realize okay this is this is my responsibility I need to now step in but now I'm not stepping in reactively anxiously you know with anger um I'm stepping in with sober mindedness um and curiosity and now I can afford to be compassionate and to to live with my family in an understanding way all of those things emerge I think out of this steady stable sober minded presence so this really good I love love the sober mindedness one of the things that really hit me in the book is I I would I would go back to when my wife would ask me some things and I was bothered by them because I thought they were a detriment to maybe uh a character flaw or anything so I would I would react instead of being curious about where all this comes from I would instantly go okay is she angry with me is he mad at me I'm I'm instead of really getting to the substance of what she's saying uh I would react and I I know I that was that's a behavior that I've seen and learned and internalized and it's mine uh but you talk about that um that uh in in that in this chapter and it really hit me like it's like okay I I sometimes I'm curious if I'm aware but most of the time I'm just like oh what is what's going on here so right yeah so that that tendency to be to be reactive it is often like a a learned a learned habit something you know you maybe you pick up from your own family of origin things like that and I think one of the one of the key things is um I don't know if I say this in the book but it's a principle I've used a lot um that sort of thing can help explain why you are the way you are it can explain certain patterns of Temptation or weakness um but it's never an excuse and I think this is the the big thing um that part of what I'm pushing in the book is um taking responsibility first for yourself and then for what God has entrusted to you is fundamental um so I I come back again and again to this um you know when that comes to the household The Book of Job you know opens with job um you know his kids get together for their for their weekly party or whatever and it says that job would offer sacrifices on their behalf lest they had sinned and cursed God in their hearts so what is job doing well he's taking responsibility for his family he's like I'm the patriarch I'm the one who's um I'm over this even though his kids are grown clearly um he still has this sense of responsibility for his family and where did that what did that responsibility man EST well it wasn't first barking orders at them it wasn't telling them you know trying to run their lives or anything um the first thing he did was he brought it before God he said God this is mine right and I'm and I know that as the head I'm I'm responsible for this and so I'm I'm bringing I'm coming before you and saying Lord I know that this is my issue that if there's sin in their hearts that's that's in some ways it's I'm not to blame for it there their sin is their sin I'm not to blame but I am responsible for it and so I'm bringing you in this case a sacrifice uh L they'd send and curse God in their heart now obviously we don't live in that old Covenant kind of era where we offer blood sacrifices on behalf of our family but the principle of who's responsible um who's the one who and and so that now I think that would take is um you see something in your house there's there's a there's an issue there's sibling rivalries and and quarrelsome or disrespect to Mom or or or just you know challenges in the marriage itself and you have to go okay first thing I need to do is I need to go before God and say this is mine I Lord I just need you to know this is mine I don't know what to do yet but I want you to know that it's my problem and I know that you're going to hold me responsible for it give me wisdom give me strength give me steadiness and sober mindedness to be able to see what I need to see and to act with wisdom and and uh and Prudence as I try to lean in and address it so I think that's that's a place I come back to that a lot um and then it means actually taking some action it means doing something and not just being a spectator um in the situation that's another form of that kind of abdication and passivity yeah so one of the things and I'll plug this uh if you guys are listening and you haven't uh downloaded the Canon Plus app it's got a lot of great resources and one of the things I think about when you talk about that is is the household I'm I'm new to covenant theology I'm new to the household stuff I've consumed a lot of of of CR Wy stuff i' a lot of stuff on Canon and when the when you um articulate what job was doing for his family um it it kind of messed up our whole American it messes m me up in this hey I'm raising these kids and I want them to uh what I was taught is in Proverbs you know shoot shoot an arrow so they so they go so when my kids's 18 19 they they leave the household and they start their own and one of the things I get here and you you know you feel free to play with this concept is like no this this is you know I'm going to be the head of the household until I'm I'm gone to ahead of a household and I get to uh I've got two sons 21 and 21 and and 15 and uh it's kind of um that um scripture has has um colored the lines a little bit differently for how I'm looking at their adulthood and how we're going to be grandparents and how you know we're going to help them in their in their life uh not just like hey you know you're on your own after 181 19 which is kind of how I you know it was it was done for for us does that make sense yeah absolutely absolutely and it is it is a challenge whenever you know you're kind of um you know feel like a little bit behind the eightball coming in late um and the key thing is you know pastor Pastor Doug always talks about God takes you from where you are not from where you ought ought to be or ought to have been so um and so you know you can always start now so you can always begin with that all right I'm taking responsibility for myself and I'm taking responsibility for what's mine and then and then from that like TR this is where confidence in the promises of God um he's faithful even if you've not been um and so now so begin to believe the promises now begin to to rely and trust in him now for all of that um is the way is the way forward yeah the other one of the other great stories you had in the chapter was the and you um articulated about nabal or nabal and uh his folly um and I'd love for you to just articulate what that looked like in the chapter and and how that how we can be helped by that story yeah so part of uh part of you know you know in the modern day um I think you know feminism is a is a key threat kind of to the Integrity of the of the home and the church and the world and everything right it's it's a it's a major ideological danger um and so um the book though the book doesn't Target feminism explicitly it's sort of there's an implicit um sort of patriarchal assumption all running throughout it um and what's more is I I've written on this extensively that it is kind of this Watershed issue the danger though is that in an um when somebody wakes up to that or sees that and begins to see not just the overt forms that we sort of associate with the world out out there um but see the more subtle um forms that can kind of work their way into the church the assumptions and the and the catering the accommodating the being steered internally um whether it's in your home I mentioned in the book The if if mama ain't happy ain't nobody happy school with husbanding um that sort of thing if uh we you see the subtle ways that it's it's worked its way in then there can be okay I need to resist this the danger um then is if you're if you've enrolled in a sort of um war on feminism class you're going to have war on feminism problems which means it might not just be feminism but you might actually be become hos hostile to femininity um to Womanhood itself and part of the point um in the same way that the question is is not whether um a husband will be the head he is um is he going to be a faithful head like Jesus or an Unfaithful one like Adam there's a a similar question um there's no question about whether the wife will be the body whether and and what does the body do well the body influences the body um provides feedback counsel wisdom um and and and influence on the head and then makes the heads you know makes things fruitful so you know women the glory of women is their fruitfulness both you think about biologically in terms of bearing of children but also just in their capacity to take good things and make them glorious and great so this is a kind of a key part of the feminine Glory um when you become so so the question is not whether a woman will influence her husband it's how so will she be an Unfaithful um influence like Eve was right handing the husb handing her husband the the fruit um or will she be a faithful influence like Abigail attempted to be right so her husband was a fool in a blockhead and was make gonna wreck their whole household was about to get wiped out and it was her wisdom first in you know sort of you know attempting to do things in the home but then failing that her husband's um not getting it done uh and is and and the household's in danger and she steps in and she goes and she does so in a submissive way she doesn't go to war against David instead she goes and offers him gifts um and seeks to U he his wrath remind him of what God has done for him and and and so you see her wisdom and her Prudence her strength and her influence so um and so in this in this situation it's not that we we want to actually get away from any notion of kind of the war between the Sexes um but instead see that complimentarity that's embedded in the marri marriage relationship and that spills out from there into society or the church and society as a whole um where men are the head men do lead U but women are vital in the fruitfulness uh in the wisdom and providing feedback and counsel uh and making the head the head's efforts making the body fruitful that's great um well let's go the opposite Spectrum yet uh I've heard Doug Wilson say this before uh if you a man who cannot stand up to his wife will never stand up for his wife alsoo on the other side of the spectrum let's say you got a real passive guy and again one of the things I always uh and this is again I'll just whenever uh I've talked to my wife about this and it's it is something that I've worked on if ever I'm around uh another couple and the the man is just passive and the and the wife is overbearing I just kind of walk out of the room and it's not nice and it's not loving it's not caring at all um again I may have the opposite problem uh but I just the passivity in in or or just somebody a husband that's just not taking responsibility or it's clear that he's not the head of the household how have you counseled uh couples in the past about about this part of um of leadership in the household yeah hey I'm being the you know I'm doing the best I can but mama's not happy so I've got to make sure she's she's good yeah so um so the fact is is that that um that sounds good and it it often sounds Pious um I'm going to sacrifice I'm going to be a servant leader um which just but that's it's abdication under the banner of servant leadership I'm not actually going to lead I'm just going to to acques and the the fact is is that um most women especially Godly women actually don't want a pushover right some of the some of the pushing is actually an attempt to see do you have a backbone and so if you're always acquiescing and uh and you're always giving in it actually fuels the frustration which it's it's a vicious cycle of you know the more and more frustrated that she gets um and the more and then he seeks to harder and harder to accommodate and both of them end up in this situation where they're bitter and resentful at each other um and and and nobody's honest about why actually what what would actually fix it um what would actually be a step in the right direction would be um for him to have some some backbone to take responsibility and to be able to say know I think this is good and right and I need you to help and assist me I need you to come alongside um as we seek to do this thing and for him to take that kind of initiative and for a lot of guys there is a learned passivity that's kind of they've had and it's and it's a weakness but again the weakness isn't isn't an excuse he he's got to grow he's got to come out of that um that passivity and to take responsibility otherwise what will happen is he'll lead you know his his abdication will lead to greater and greater dysfunction destruction idolatry in his home and then you know this is the the pattern we see in the scriptures when the when it when the bill comes due it's blame shift well she it was her idea I just I was trying to Love Her by doing what she wanted um and it it actually you know it's just bad bad bad all the way all the way down so you have to be able to see it and then you have to say Okay what actually did Christ do as a as a model of Godly leadership well he took responsibility uh he he um he didn't just you know do whatever the people of God said whatever the church said right he sacrificed um and and now and then he died and he whatever but he actually LED he actually said I I know what this I know what I'm doing um and if he didn't know what he was doing for a guy who doesn't know what he's doing he needs to figure it out um there is that's that's part of it is if you don't know you need to go find those who do know and learn from them U which is why you know when you come across that uh in the wild um you know it's trying to figure out which which tool is necessary to to be the proper inducement some guys do need kind of a poke right they need they they need to be prodded they need to be rebuked or corrected um other guys actually need some encouragement right and and usually it's a mix of both it's like hey stop making excuses stop stop sulking stop whining and then couple that with and hey you can do this God's for you God's with you God wants this more than you do and he's with you to do it I'm in your corner I'm I'm backing you up I'm I'm I'm cheering you on I want to encourage and exhort you to do it so you need to know I believe that you can take some steps here um but you need to not sulk and and whine and moan um in resentment and be passive instead you need to get up and take responsibility well that's a great uh exhortation uh Joe uh of of just responsibility uh I love that we I think we covered uh a lot of the different uh rainow of of and flavors of how men are either too uh leading uh too much of an aor authoritarian or too passive in uh what to do about each each type which is uh which just go back to the God's word and uh and and become head of the household and find those things that are um that you need to work on and uh so finally let's let's do this um as we end our time here what's you know what's an exhortation for this um uh our audience here mostly men um what is the what is the common thread of the book what what is it that you're you're trying to communicate uh to to men in this book specifically and then uh where can everybody find Joe Ry on the interwebs yeah so well I'll ENT the second one first so uh joeore rigny on Twitter is about the only social media I have um I frequently I've written a lot in the past for Desiring God got stuff on the Canon Plus app uh American reformer uh World opinions those are kind of my regular um locations on the internet in terms of kind of the exhortation I think it would be kind of an image uh maybe that would help I think I think this comes in that same fourth chapter um but in the in Psalm 19 David um talks about heaven declares the glory of God and in the image he gives is the image of the son right which um you know which is like in in in the heavens God has set a tabernacle a tent for the sun which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber and like a strong man running his course with joy and so these these sort of three images of the son is kind of the the base image but when David sees the sun he sees two other very masculine imag he sees the the lover right the husband the bridegroom um on his wedding night with the brightness and the joy so he David sees the son and he's reminded of the the brightness and Glory of a groom on his wedding day and then he also sees um the warrior he sees the the man who says I'm I'm running into battle I'm protecting my people uh and I'm doing it for the joy so the strong man there is not just like a runner uh the strong man is the giborim it's the warrior it's the man of war um he's it's it's David's Mighty minut that's that same word and so David's reminded of these two kind of masculine IM is and I think that's helpful it's a good it's a good way to to kind of approach every time you walk outside and you see the sun Big Bright Sun blazing across the sky you should say God wants me to see in that the bridegroom and the warrior and ultimately to see Christ right who is the bridegroom and the warrior the ultimate bridegroom and the warrior and then to say that's what I'm supposed to be I'm supposed to be that kind of brightness that that kind of Glory in my own home in my business uh in the church um that's that's what I want to bring is that gravity and that GL gladness that the sun has and that Christ has that's that's my call that'd be kind of an exhortation to uh to your audience well I like it leadership and emotional sabotage it's book by Joe Ry you can pick it up on the Canon plus you can pick it up on Amazon and everywhere books are sold uh Joe rigny thank you very much uh for uh doing the iron deep podcast folks we'll see you next time thank you very much
